[Sulis]

Hard to believe this kind of crap still goes on, this poor, poor girl:

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A 16-YEAR-OLD girl was buried alive by relatives in southeast Turkey in a gruesome honour killing just because she reportedly befriended boys, the Anatolia news agency reported today.
Acting on a tip-off, police discovered Medine Memi's body in a sitting position with her hands tied, in a two-metre deep hole in a chicken pen outside her house in Kahta town, Adiyaman province, 40 days after she went missing, the agency said.

A subsequent post mortem revealed that she had a significant amount of soil in her lungs and stomach, meaning that she was buried alive, forensic experts told the agency.

"The autopsy result is blood-curdling. According to our findings, the girl, who had no bruises on her body and no sign of narcotics or poison in her blood, was alive and fully conscious when she was buried," one anonymous expert said.

Medine's father and grandfather have been formally arrested and jailed pending trial over her killing, the agency said.

The father is reported to have said in his testimony that the family was unhappy she had male friends.

In honour killings, most prevalent in Turkey's mainly Kurdish southeast, a so-called family council names a member to murder a female relative considered to have sullied the family honour, usually by engaging in an extra-marital affair.

But the practice has gone so far as to kill rape victims or women who simply talked to strange men.

The first thing that I thought after reading this was 'ignorant, bloody savages'

Not sure what the worst part of this 'honour' killing is, that fact that she was killed in such a cruel way or that it was her family that did this to her and you can bet your last dollar the the father and grandfather won't get any significant jail time. It's hard to believe that in the 21st century there are still pockets of this world that haven't evolved past the stone age,

The turkish government needs to drag that province into the 21st century, kicking and screaming if need be.

Do you think that governments should force cultures/groups like this to assimilate into mainstream society?

[Evolence]

That's pretty horrific. I think governments should act very harshly in circumstances like these. The full extent of the law should come to bear against perpetrators.

[perfectsim]

I've said it once and I'll say it again. Until these savages stop burying family members and start burning them with acid instead, nobody will ever learn.

[Iceheart]

What gets me is that there aren't any bruises, and she wasn't drugged. I take it this means she went willingly, or at least without a fight? Crap

[Primbud]

I don't know enough about the history of these things (how honourable is it? what if they believe in reincarnation?) except that it happened enough to make any real comments - most Governments seem like businesses anyway so I can't take their side, at least I know that much. But I don't know enough about the other 'side' ... 

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government needs to drag that province into the 21st century, kicking and screaming if need be

This kind of comment should have the speaker buried alive. I say more power to those who resist change.

[Undome Telcontar]

whichever way you cut it, it's still murder.

and it's called balance. change for its own sake is stupid, but if everyone was that conservative we wouldn't have medicine, space travel, electric vehicles, computers... anything that requires a paradigm shift, really.

[Iceheart]

Primbud, on 05 February 2010 - 11:24 AM, said:

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government needs to drag that province into the 21st century, kicking and screaming if need be

This kind of comment should have the speaker buried alive. I say more power to those who resist change.

Even when the system is obviously flawed? Even when the change would noticeable improve the quality of life for people?

[DeathLurtz]

Who are you to tell these people that they are wrong? How do we know that killing this girl didn't actually bring honor to the family in the eyes of the god that they believe in, which may be the only existing god.

While I think this is horrific, and may be stretching the beliefs of these people a little further than they were intended to be interpreted, I don't think we are right to sit in our silk pajamas in front of our expensive computers and call these people savages and say that they should be erradicated from the earth. Persecuting these people over what they believe brings honor to their family is just as wrong as me saying that it's silly for jews to believe that moses is the messiah and they should be stricken dead for being such savages.

[irishdancer2]

Sulis, on 04 February 2010 - 07:16 PM, said:

In honour killings, most prevalent in Turkey's mainly Kurdish southeast, a so-called family council names a member to murder a female relative considered to have sullied the family honour, usually by engaging in an extra-marital affair.

But the practice has gone so far as to kill rape victims or women who simply talked to strange men.

In my history class last year, we read an article about the honor killings of rape victims and then had to do a discussion board posting on if we thought it was sometimes okay for our governments to get involved in foreign affairs of that nature. I was somewhat astounded by the number of people in my class who basically said, "Meh, it's not our problem, we shouldn't do anything about it." I don't really care how you slice--some things are just wrong, and burying someone alive is one of those things. How can anyone possibly think that's okay? And worse, how can someone be so ambivalent towards something like that? I don't get it

[Iceheart]

DeathLurtz, on 05 February 2010 - 06:03 PM, said:

Who are you to tell these people that they are wrong? How do we know that killing this girl didn't actually bring honor to the family in the eyes of the god that they believe in, which may be the only existing god.

While I think this is horrific, and may be stretching the beliefs of these people a little further than they were intended to be interpreted, I don't think we are right to sit in our silk pajamas in front of our expensive computers and call these people savages and say that they should be erradicated from the earth. Persecuting these people over what they believe brings honor to their family is just as wrong as me saying that it's silly for jews to believe that moses is the messiah and they should be stricken dead for being such savages.

I agree that there are some cultural customs that may look "bad" or "wrong" from the outside but you have to have a live-and-let-live attitude, particularly since if you know the reason for the custom, it often seems much less "strange"... but if you knew this girl, would you be able to shrug your shoulders and say to her "well, tough luck, but we all have to respect your family's beliefs and practices"? I'd never say the culture as a whole needs to be eradicated, but I do definitely believe in preserving human life.

I'd like to hear what the family's spiritual leader and religious community has to say about this.

[Evolence]

I'd say that one man's ability to honor his god ends where another life begins. Murder should NEVER be culturally acceptable.

[Sulis]

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Murder should NEVER be culturally acceptable.

Exactly. it's murder plain and simple and can never be justified in the name of 'tradition'

[Mara Jade Skywalker]

DeathLurtz, on 05 February 2010 - 06:03 PM, said:

Who are you to tell these people that they are wrong? How do we know that killing this girl didn't actually bring honor to the family in the eyes of the god that they believe in, which may be the only existing god.

While I think this is horrific, and may be stretching the beliefs of these people a little further than they were intended to be interpreted, I don't think we are right to sit in our silk pajamas in front of our expensive computers and call these people savages and say that they should be erradicated from the earth. Persecuting these people over what they believe brings honor to their family is just as wrong as me saying that it's silly for jews to believe that moses is the messiah and they should be stricken dead for being such savages.

Dude, this isn't just about an issue of not letting women wear certain clothes or talk to certain people or do certain things. THEY KILLED HER. I don't care who you are or where you live--that's just wrong.

[DeathLurtz]

I agree that it is wrong. I wasn't disputing that. I would never agree with such a practice. I guess I just don't like the language. Calling these people "ignorant bloody savages" over religious practices is pretty ignorant itself.

I do agree that these guys should be prosecuted and charged with murder, but, like Iceheart, I would definitely be interested in what the spiritual leaders or even the other family members would have to say. Maybe they too feel like they shed themselves of some dishonor.

[Sulis]

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I guess I just don't like the language. Calling these people "ignorant bloody savages" over religious practices is pretty ignorant itself.

I stand by what I said earlier. Only an ignorant savage would do that to a member of their family.

[Mitth'raw'nuroudo]

DeathLurtz, on 05 February 2010 - 06:03 PM, said:

Who are you to tell these people that they are wrong? How do we know that killing this girl didn't actually bring honor to the family in the eyes of the god that they believe in, which may be the only existing god.

Just your run-of-the-mill homo-sapien, for whom evolution didn't involve losing the capacity for empathy, compassion, or rage when faced with cruelty. Yes i grew up in a different culture, but I still say there can be no honor in killing the innocent and/or defenseless. How can ANYONE really believe that? I'm pretty open-minded about a lot of things, but I simply cannot fathom the kind of animal that equates burying a girl alive with honor. In my opinion, everyone involved in that girl's death should be killed, the system that tolerates, let alone PROMOTES, such a thing should be torn down, and anyone with the least moral neutrality on the issue should see a shrink.
This has nothing to do with cultural tolerance, this is about being outraged by a horrific act.
I think "ignorant bloody savages" fits quite well here.

[DeathLurtz]

Whoa, this thread wasn't closed yet. hmmm....

Your definition of "pretty open-minded" must be rather restrictive.

[Mitth'raw'nuroudo]

My open-mindedness doesn't extend to people being buried alive. Accepting something like that is apathy, not open-mindedness.

[Primbud]

Mitth'raw'nuroudo, on 30 March 2010 - 09:20 AM, said:

My open-mindedness doesn't extend to people being buried alive. Accepting something like that is apathy

See, this is just your opinion, just like anything any of us says - my open-mindedness does extend to burying people alive and the above example is an example of it - of course this doesn't mean I would participate in the activity, but I would not interfere based on my own set of values (whatever they may be - because they are mine ... ), especially when they cite their reasons as they did.

[DeathLurtz]

The idea that you can think of yourself as open-minded and also think that its ok to call anyone an ignorant bloody savage is asinine, and just proves that you're not as open-minded as you say you are. I don't get what's so hard to understand about that.

Just because you don't agree with someones beliefs, does not mean that they are savages and should be stricken from the earth. How is saying such things about these people any different than right wing lunatics taking to the streets and spewing out hatred for gay people? They don't understand the practices of gay people and think that they are wrong for living their lives the way they do, so they think that they should all be killed or run out of town for not living their lives the way the right wing crazies do.

But you're open-minded, so you probably don't feel the same way about gay people as the right wing whackos do, but you stil feel that same exact type of hatred, just for something else.

[Darth Kcorbe]

i gotta side with Thrawn here; there's no honor in killing the innocent, and one person's rights generally end where another's begin.

[Mitth'raw'nuroudo]

DeathLurtz, on 05 April 2010 - 04:47 PM, said:

The idea that you can think of yourself as open-minded and also think that its ok to call anyone an ignorant bloody savage is asinine, and just proves that you're not as open-minded as you say you are. I don't get what's so hard to understand about that.

Just because you don't agree with someones beliefs, does not mean that they are savages and should be stricken from the earth. How is saying such things about these people any different than right wing lunatics taking to the streets and spewing out hatred for gay people? They don't understand the practices of gay people and think that they are wrong for living their lives the way they do, so they think that they should all be killed or run out of town for not living their lives the way the right wing crazies do.

The difference is that gays aren't killing innocent people in horrific ways and then claiming it's part of their chosen lifestyle. I think the fact that YOU don't see a difference there is more a problem than me being "closed-minded" about murder.
I don't think murder IS a culturea thing. Where in the Koran does it call for such a thing? Or where in the Bible? As i recall the Witch hunts and the Inquisition were carried out by the Church. Does outrage at those cruelties make me closed-minded?
You're right that I was out of line with the savages comment, even if I didn't say it first. The act in question is rather barbaric, and I was speaking out of anger.

Maybe I'm not as open-minded as I think, but I am open-minded about a lot of things, not least of all different cultures, just that murder is outside my box, if you will. If being digusted by what was done to this girl, and others like her, makes me closed-minded, then so be it; I can live with that. I'm at least far less closed-minded than those who murder innocents.

Let me put it this way: What if this had happened in the USA? Keeping all other facts the same, would you still call it a cultural matter and call for tolerance? A person's cultural grounding and moral beliefs don't disappear just because they change location. A man in Pheonix recently ran down his own daughter and her boyfriend's mother because the girl was "too westernized." Would you call for tolerance in that case? If not, why do you call for it in this one?

[Sulis]

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Yemeni child bride dies of bleeding after intercourse



A 13-year-old Yemeni girl who was forced into marriage died five days after her wedding when she suffered a rupture in her sex organs and hemorrhaging, a local rights organization said today.
Ilham Mahdi al Assi died last Friday in a hospital in Yemen's Hajja province, the Shaqaeq Arab Forum for Human Rights said in a statement quoting a medical report.

She was wedded the previous Monday in a traditional arrangement known as a "swap marriage," in which the brother of the bride also married the sister of the groom, it said.

"The child Ilham has died as a martyr due to the abuse of children's lives in Yemen," the non-governmental organization said.

Her death was a "flagrant example" of the results of opposing the ban on child marriage in Yemen, which was leading to "killing child females," it said.

The marriage of young girls is widespread in Yemen, which has a strong tribal structure.


The death of a 12-year-old girl in childbirth in September illustrated the case of the country's "brides of death," many of whom were married off even before puberty.

Controversy heightened in Yemen recently over a law banning child marriage in the impoverished country through setting a minimum age of 17 for women and 18 for men.

Thousands of conservative women demonstrated outside parliament last month, answering a call by Islamist parties opposing the law.

A lesser number of women rallied at the same venue a few days later in support of the law, the implementation of which was blocked pending a request by a group of politicians for a review.

Discuss

[Darth Kcorbe]

i think bleeding to death after defloration is a good sign that you're doing wrong, holy ****. seriously, that's just ****ed up right there. the only ones opposing that law are pedos who don't want to lose their license to molest.

[Iceheart]

What gets me is how long did they take to get her to a hospital? I assume she was deflowered on her wedding night... you'd think five days is a pretty good window to get her some medical attention. Without any more details, tho, who knows.

I'm not sure what to think about brides who are in their young teens. The practice did used to be the norm in many cultures, including western cultures. But marrying girls against their will, and expecting sex before they're mature enough to handle it, be it physically or emotionally, is just terrible.

[Sulis]

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But marrying girls against their will, and expecting sex before they're mature enough to handle it, be it physically or emotionally, is just terrible.

yup, just imagine the pain that girl went through....

[Darth Kcorbe]

first the emotional agony of having to marry some guy she's likely never met, not to mention the dread of knowing she'll soon have to go to bed with the guy, then the physical pain of a traditional defloration, and then a week of agony from internal injuries. sickest part is i can't help but think dying was the best thing that happened to her. if he was so forceful on the "honeymoon" that she died from internal bleeding, ****, the rest of her life would be one of hellish dread, or hellish numbness. that's a canyon of a culture gap for ya. i'm a bit protective of my own sister("if she comes home crying, i spend a night in jail soon" kind of protective), and i can't imagine a brother letting this happen. just the thought of this happening to her, there's not a sufficient torture but, remember that scene in Taken, i think i'd start there. i'd video-tape it too, and make sure he knew that as soon as he passed out i'd broadcast the ****'s begging to the world.

[irishdancer2]

Iceheart, on 10 April 2010 - 11:43 PM, said:

I'm not sure what to think about brides who are in their young teens. The practice did used to be the norm in many cultures, including western cultures. But marrying girls against their will, and expecting sex before they're mature enough to handle it, be it physically or emotionally, is just terrible.

This is the part that gets me. I think that when it was common in western cultures, the girl would have to have hit puberty at the absolute minimum. It sounds like they can trade these girls off into marriages before their sexual organs are even developed. How does that make sense?

[monkeygirl]

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Do you think that governments should force cultures/groups like this to assimilate into mainstream society?

Depends on what/why. In this particular case, I think the girl's family needs to be tried for murder. I think the governments have a moral obligation to protect all citizens from murder and mutilation, but not to force cultural groups into what they deem is mainstream society. In fact, this family may BE in mainstream society, or closer to it than we are, where they live. I'd like to see governments step in when things like this happens and trump cultural beliefs with laws when it protects humans from physical harm or death. Once any society lets their government start dictating who isn't mainstream and punishing them for it, they turn too much over to that government.

You can't force someone to believe their way of doing something is morally wrong, but you can lock up individuals for killing.

[Iceheart]

irishdancer2, on 13 April 2010 - 01:32 PM, said:

This is the part that gets me. I think that when it was common in western cultures, the girl would have to have hit puberty at the absolute minimum. It sounds like they can trade these girls off into marriages before their sexual organs are even developed. How does that make sense?

This girl was 13, tho. I hit childbearing age at 11 1/2. Granted, I'm an American who had a year-round nutrient rich diet all my life. I wonder if physical puberty is the issue here. Without knowing anything more than what is in that article, this case sounds more like severe abuse to me. As for child brides before puberty... we don't have much information about the actual practice in Yemen. Are the marriages typically consummated immediately (we only have two examples of underage girls clearly deflowered, and no statistics - is it the norm, or are the opposing groups holding up tragic exceptions to the rule?), or are they symbolic? See, for instance, the beginning of Janet Lewis' The Wife of Martin Guerre, where 11 year olds (in middle-ages France) are married to each other for familial/political reasons, with no expectation of consummation until they are old enough and ready. If it's expected that grown men consummate a marriage with a pre-pubescent girl, I'd consider that child abuse. But if these are political marriages we're talking about, where the girls are married for family binding reasons and kept untouched in normal circumstances until they are old enough, I don't see anything really wrong with that.

What I also find interesting about that article are the groups for and against the current marriage practices:

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Controversy heightened in Yemen recently over a law banning child marriage in the impoverished country through setting a minimum age of 17 for women and 18 for men.

Thousands of conservative women demonstrated outside parliament last month, answering a call by Islamist parties opposing the law.

A lesser number of women rallied at the same venue a few days later in support of the law, the implementation of which was blocked pending a request by a group of politicians for a review.

It sounds like more women who have gone through the marriage system want to keep it intact than are opposed to the practice. So... it is a case of culture over all, including the health and safety of the women within it, or are the people happy with their way of life?

monkeygirl, on 13 April 2010 - 03:26 PM, said:

Quote

Do you think that governments should force cultures/groups like this to assimilate into mainstream society?

Depends on what/why. In this particular case, I think the girl's family needs to be tried for murder. I think the governments have a moral obligation to protect all citizens from murder and mutilation, but not to force cultural groups into what they deem is mainstream society. In fact, this family may BE in mainstream society, or closer to it than we are, where they live. I'd like to see governments step in when things like this happens and trump cultural beliefs with laws when it protects humans from physical harm or death. Once any society lets their government start dictating who isn't mainstream and punishing them for it, they turn too much over to that government.

You can't force someone to believe their way of doing something is morally wrong, but you can lock up individuals for killing.

I agree.

[Mitth'raw'nuroudo]

I concur with Icheart.
Mind you, just because a girl has "hit childbearing age" doesn't mean she's ready for, or even capable of having, sex with a full-grown man. Whatever stage of development the girl in question was at, she clearly wasn't ready.